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What's so great about BRW?
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Author:  Tai Fu [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:57 am ]
Post subject:  What's so great about BRW?
Ok I get this guitar in the shop, owner says it's BRW. The side is flatsawn and the back looks a lot like IRW to be honest (it could be too).

The side looks like it has ripples in it that probably formed after finishing, due to it being flatsawn.

The sound is so-so. The guitar is made in Spain by a company that begins with A (the headstock has in inlay of A on it) but I can't quite remember the name.

Can someone tell me why BRW is so great? Does it really make a guitar sound so much better?
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Beats me. I give up.


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Author:  Haans [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Nothing special about BRW except it's traditional. Building a guitar out of BRW does not automatically make it is a great guitar, it might just be a crappy guitar.
It does contribute to a very lyrical, complex tonal quality, depending on the spruce you use.
Author:  Colin North [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
"Can someone tell me why BRW is so great? Does it really make a guitar sound so much better?"

A high Q (low damping factor) is supposed to be one of the main attractions.
In other words, the good bits "ring", i.e. have a good and sustained tap tone.
Also a nice dark appearance.
Of course. that would be wasted on a guitar without a good soundboard.
Me, I just love the smell!
Author:  Tai Fu [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
I guess using Adirondack spruce? It costs a lot less than a set of BRW however and I bet it could make other cheaper back woods sound just as good.

So it seems like using good spruce makes the guitar sound better than using good back wood.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Looks, smell, tap.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
African blackwood smells pretty good too, and it's not as expensive.
Author:  Joel Barbeau [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Could the company be Alhambra Guitars? I've seen a couple of them recently, they're alright I guess.

As for the BRW, I've never built with it but I'm sure its low damping quality can only help the sound.
On the other hand, you can make incredibly good sounding guitars with almost any wood so I dont think BRW is necessary, especially for the price and hassle :? Diminishing returns I think it's called.
Author:  mqbernardo [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Well, in this corner of the world abw is rather expensive. Maybe not sky rocket expensive like BRW or pernambuco, but surely a runner up. L
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
In my opinion yes but not all BRW is good BRW. law of supply and demand. I can get $5000 more on a BRW than EIR
Author:  lespaul123 [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
I don't really think ABW and BRW are exactly interchangeable. ABW is a lot heavier and doesn't seem to have as high Q as BRW. I have limited experience in building with both but I have a bunch of BRW and some ABW. BRW can be very impressive flat sawn or not. Tai, are you basing your opinion of BRW on one cheap guitar? BRW just may not be your cup of tea. It could be the guitar you played. It may be that your ear is not as good as you may have thought. What I mean by that is you may not have the refined pallet for tone as say Somogyi. However, who is to say that his opinion is more valuable regarding tone than any other guitarist. I don't believe there is one wood that reins supreme over all woods. The more I build the more I realize that everyone prefers something different. If you build one off guitars for customers than your goal is to educate and find the tone that they prefer with in reason. If you build spec guitars for people to buy, then your goal is to educate and build the best sounding guitars in your opinion, as well as to build guitars that please your client base. Back on topic, I do believe the top wood to be much more of a contributor to the system than the back, and the builder has much more to do with tone than the selected woods. I also believe that BRW has great potential, but I feel that way for most wood.

-Rob
Author:  Haans [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Again, it all depends on what you want the guitar to sound like. Red spruce is no better than others, mostly depends on what you do with it. I use red because it has a more fundamental tone to it. If I want fundamental, I combine it with something like oak, if I want more complex, BRW. If I wanted really complex, I'd use German spruce and BRW.
As far as Q, don't know anything about Q's. I would assume BRW and ABW are not similar at all except in price.
White Oak has great potential...so does every other wood.
Author:  James W B [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
The holy grail? Tone beauty and mystique which brings a lot more money to the builder as John said.
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
as Haans point out , it depends on what you are going for. My niche is pre war martins and I will admit that I am a traditionalist in my building. There is no doubt that rosewood has a mystique to it and I feel it does add something . There is also a snob factor . I have to admit that I have 6 BRW guitars in my collection ranging from 1857 to 2005.
Also the top is part of the deal but I can say a BRW Red top will sound different than a hog or eir top. It is a recipe and each part adds a bit of spice. They we also add building techniques etc it can be a big can of worms. Still the wood is a great wood to work with . Again I will say that not all BRW is the same. For all intents and purposes I would rather build with a great piece of mahogany than a bad piece of Brazilian.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
I haven't had the pleasure to see many BRW guitars, so when I see one I was expecting earthshattering tone that would justify its price, but it just sounds like any other rosewood guitar.

The guitar is a Alhambra A-3. Owner says it's brazilian but the back and side looks mismatched in grain... can't smell anything from the wood though because I'm not cutting or sanding them. It looks nice however Mad. RW can look similar.

Is Mad RW CITES by the way? LMI seems to have no issue shipping bridge plates of it overseas.
Author:  Frank Ford [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Follow the money.

It's about the money.

It's always about the money.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
I actually have a hunch, like could a country label a particular species endemic to their country CITES I just to bump its price sky high, even though the specie in question is not on IUCN or even endangered in the first place?
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
What Frank said. Also mqbernardo: looks, tap, smell.

I tried some years ago to make a 'matched pair' of Classicals in oak and BRW to see what the difference was. The short answer is: "Not much". The oak back was a bit denser than the BRW, so that guitar ended up just a little heavier, and did not produce quite as much sound for a given input. The BRW had much lower damping, and that may have contributed to a little stronger high frequency response in the BRW guitar. All in all the BRW one was better, but not by very much.

It is, of course, distressingly easy to make a lousy guitar out of good wood, particularly if it's being done in a factory. Add in the fact that there's good BRW and bad. I've got some straight grained old stuff that's really plain looking but sounds great. Most of the modern 'stump' wood I've seen should have been made into coffee tables, IMO.
Author:  forgottenwoods [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Tai Fu wrote:
I actually have a hunch, like could a country label a particular species endemic to their country CITES I just to bump its price sky high, even though the specie in question is not on IUCN or even endangered in the first place?


No.
A single country can not list a species on CITES. A country, any country, requests a species be listed. Then the CITES committee evaluates the situation of the species and decides if it is endangered. Then it can be listed on apx1.
Listing a species on apx1 would not make a country any money. When a species is listed all commercial harvest and commerce is stopped. So the only people making more money after a species is listed are the smugglers.
Author:  Toonces [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Brazilian RW is an absolutely amazing tonewood. If the price were in line with other tonewood species then I would use it for almost every guitar I build -- it can look incredible and it can sound incredible. However, it is no "better" than any other tonewood because one "sound" isn't objectively better than any other sound. The bottom line is that there are many other tonewoods that produce a very good tone that may serve some guitar players better than Brazilian RW. HOWEVER, the wood combination of Adirondack Spruce & Brazilian RW is a much loved wood combination for many reasons and for many players is as close to their ideal sound as is possible.

In today's world, you can achieve a very similar sound by using woods that are very similar to Brazilian RW. I tend to be of the perspective that many of the Rosewoods will result in instrument with a tonality so close to Brazilian RW that it practically doesn't matter -- mentally it does and from a marketing perspective it does as well which is why people still build with Brazilian RW when the price is astronomical.

In short, I would say that it is a phenomenal sounding tonewood but a tonewood for which there are excellent substitutes. There are also very different sounding tonewoods like Mahogany and Maple that yield different sounding instruments but instruments that are in no way "inferior".
Author:  Chris Ensor [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
For quite some time, I have been "cataloging" the sound of my guitars through sound clips on my website. I play the same clip and use the same microphone set up (within human error) for each clip. Last year I built two guitars with almost the exact same specs- same body size, cutaways, frets to body, armrest, fingerboard... They do have different bridges. One guitar is BRW/ADI, the other is Coco/Bearclaw Sitka. You can listen to them here:
http://ensorguitars.com/the_listening_room.html
I like BRW. But like others have mentioned, there is good and bad stuff out there. Plus, there are few clients who can afford it. That is why I like to have alternatives and there are plenty of great woods out there that sound close enough that most people can't tell a difference.
Author:  David LaPlante [ Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
I've made many guitars out of Brazilian rosewood (I like it) and as fond as I am of Martin (I helped to write a book about them) the world of Martin guitars (as well as Martin-inspired luthier guitar clones, conversions, interpretations etc.) is ruled by a very well developed orthodoxy which is not always based on reality, but often on myth, belief and sometimes wishful thinking.
Central to these beliefs is the superiority of Brazilian rosewood. So much so that any guitar which is not Brazilian is considered essentially "second class". I'll give dispensation to Koa (and perhaps mahogany) here as it isn't considered a "substitute" for Brazilian but rather something different (especially as guitars often have koa tops) altogether.
Included in this is primarily Indian rosewood and most other "rosewoods" though Madagascar rosewood has been surprisingly well accepted on the recent Martin Authentics mostly because it resembles Brazilian and most folks can only afford to spend just so much as the few Martins actually made with Brazilian these days (such as it is) are astronomically expensive.
Thus real Brazilian on a recent Martin has become the rare unobtainium and this has given rise to a burgeoning (at least till the FFWS raids everyone) cottage industry in clones and conversions etc. in order to supply the demand at more accessible prices.
You can also toss into this equation the preference for scalloped forward shifted bracing, Red spruce over Sitka or European spruce, as well as the much hyped effect of hide glue on the final result.
One can't fault builders in this genre for wanting to use Brazilian in that using any other wood may mean that they don't get as well paid for their work in the final analysis.(i.e. Frank's "follow the money" comment)
There's just one problem, with the legal restrictions and quality of supply, Brazilian's just not (IMO) worth the trouble any more
This is primarily why I moved to the classical guitar as there are still many open minds in this arena and folks don't much care how you build it or with what.
It just better sound good....
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
Thank you David. I must admit that I have become a huge fan of Brazilian bridges.
Author:  klooker [ Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
When people started building guitars with BRW, wasn't it the most common rosewood for furniture and other decorative wooden items?

If that is correct, it just seems a little too coincidental that the "best", or what many feel is the best, was the industry standard stuff.

Kevin Looker
Author:  Lonnie J Barber [ Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What's so great about BRW?
It's the same with Ebony. The lady from whom my wife has her nails done is Vietnamese. I asked her,out of curiosity,if there was Ebony in Vietnam? She said you mean the real pretty black wood. I said yes. She said the Rich people of her country have all their furniture made of Ebony. Tables,chairs.sofa's,etc. She said very expensive but very beautiful. I told her yes I could imagine. So it goes.


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